Podcast Interview with Carol the Coach (aired September 21, 2020)
|
|
Carol Juergensen Sheets
(Sex Help with Carol The Coach) ...and get ready for a fascinating show because holistic recovery, actually embraces recovery by looking at it from all different perspectives. So Patrick, welcome to Sex Help with Carol the Coach, how are you? Patrick Hentsch Thank you. I'm very well thank you and yourself? Carol Juergensen Sheets I am also doing well. We are airing at a different time than when we're going to be playing this, our audience is going to hear this on October 19 and, you know, I saw what you were offering our listeners, in regards to emotional maturity and I was so excited about it because that's what I think recovery is really all about. Once the triggers are calm, then it's about developing into the highest level human being we can so can you tell us a little bit about emotional maturity and how did you get on this road of figuring all this out. Patrick Hentsch Absolutely, yes so this is really the fruit of my own journey so I myself am a recovering addict. And my journey was long and arduous, I won't lie, and I went through many institutions, so I sometimes jokingly say that my education and rehab was as expensive but much more valuable than my Ivy League education. And that's really what led me to become a counselor. Carol Juergensen Sheets You're a counselor that, my goodness you're like an engineer or an architect I mean you've really created a lot of interest in your life haven't you? Patrick Hentsch Yes. And that's right, my background is in architecture, graphic design and I think I've blended that, it's not something I left behind completely once I got into recovery. And it kind of shows up in my work as you may have seen because a lot of my conceptualizations and models end up being diagrams, graphic, and in a sense, architectural, structural. So, I think it certainly informs the way I approach counseling as well, and recovery. Carol Juergensen Sheets Yeah. So, if you would, you have a website that talks about all the different ways one can increase their emotional maturity. So would you share with our listening audience a little bit about that journey, specifically. Patrick Hentsch Sure, yes you're absolutely right. You know, I think recovery sometimes gets shortchanged and I really want to stress that in the early stages, even though so much focus goes into addressing the addiction, which usually begins with addressing all the negative consequences, the powerlessness the unmanageable behaviors, and so forth, and a lot of effort goes into how do we stop this, how do we abstain from these behaviors, but the truth is recovery is so much more. And as you said it really is, in the end, about achieving our human potential that I believe we all have. And so from that perspective, I think we can look at addiction as a huge obstacle or barrier that separates us from our own potential, so the emotional maturity piece, I think, has to do with... well, first I think—this may be oversimplification—but I think we can fairly say that addiction exists in the first place because experiencing being alive is in fact very difficult, very overwhelming. |
I think we can look at addiction as a huge obstacle or barrier that separates us from our own potential... Addiction exists in the first place because experiencing being alive is in fact very overwhelming... We come into life ill-equipped with how to experience our own emotions as anything other than inconvenient intrusions... There are so many other ways that we humans know how to numb or avoid emotions and that we routinely engage in... We can't just selectively shut down certain emotions and not others... As comforting as it may be to avoid certain emotions, we start to notice that we don't feel very alive... |
And I think specifically the aspect of experiencing being alive that's the most overwhelming is emotions and sadly I think this has a lot to do with cultural factors as well but we are in a civilization that has for centuries failed to really acknowledge and honor the central place of emotions in the experience of being a human being. And so there's really very little positive modeling, there's almost no education at all on—I mean I've certainly never heard of a school program for children that had anything to say about emotions.
And so really we come into life ill-equipped with how to experience our own emotions as anything other than inconvenient intrusions. So, I think addiction has a lot to do with the ways many of us —without the guidance—discover ways in which we think we can control our emotional experience, either by numbing, avoiding, or replacing our emotions. And so that's a very unfortunate way to come into life, because I think of emotions as energy. And I think of our emotions as really our own life-force, our vitality.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Well I was gonna say and if you're numbing them, self medicating with any kind of addictive matter, then you really aren't healing. Those are all important feelings that may either direct you to do something different or affirm you, or get you to change. And so one of the things that I really noticed about your model and by the way, it really is an amazing model—he has a diagram: ability and willingness to fully embrace the rawness of being alive—and I agree with you I think emotions are nothing more than energy, we are nothing more than energy. And so, this model shows how abstinence, and sobriety are so important, but it's the recovery that actually helps you to embrace the rawness of life. Wouldn't you agree?
Patrick Hentsch
Absolutely, yes, that's the real prize you're right Carol, that's the prize and I think many end up in so called recovery, in the program, not realizing how high they can aim, so sadly often people use the terms abstinence, sobriety, recovery interchangeably. And when I work with my clients, one of the first things I want to clear up is how they each mean something quite different, even though very related. And so when people have abstained for whatever, three, five years, that's commendable because that alone isn't easy to do, but that is only the beginning, and, when I say that's only the beginning I don't mean timewise, I mean I think we can get much further in five years than just being abstinent but without the awareness, you know, I see a lot of people living in a state of abstinence, three, five years in who aren't necessarily aware of how much further they could go and from my perspective, are not living in recovery. And the most obvious form of that is colloquially known as the dry drunk.
So I think it's helpful to to clarify the difference between these terms even if they just chart sort of a path, because each stage, each term, promises something different. And so abstinence really is nothing more than the cessation of a defined particular behavior which naturally is very important, and is the first thing we address when someone starts to work on this. But here's the thing about abstinence, Carol, like I said it's stopping a specific behavior so what usually happens is we start with identifying which behavior is the problem behavior. And generally speaking that definition is pretty narrow, so in the case of sex addiction, that may be even more specific than just sexual behavior as a blanket statement. It'll depend on what the addict's been doing to act out, but in the program, those who are familiar with it there's the thing called the three circles or the bottom line behaviors, and so addicts begin by defining usually a list of behaviors, for example, attending a strip club, or consuming pornography or, flirting with people outside of my marriage and so forth. And so we have a list of specific behaviors, which is very important, and now we we aim to abstain from those and that's also very important—and I'll also say very difficult—and a lot goes into how do we do that well. But what that also means is, it doesn't allow us, at this point, when we're focusing on abstinence, to maybe realize that if the core issue is the avoidance or the numbing of emotions, at this point it's difficult to appreciate that there are so many other ways that we humans know how to numb or avoid emotions and that we routinely engage in them. And so we have a paradox because in the early stages, we have to define bottom line behaviors, we have to abstain from them and get traction. It's almost like a secret that the counselor knows which is that later on, there'll be a host of other behavior to look at. I think early on, that's overwhelming for—you know, it's hard enough for an addict just to put down, whatever their identified addiction is.
And so it's a paradox. But, the implication is that, as this journey continues, other forms, maybe more subtle forms of emotional masking, I'll call it, do they exist and are very available. We live in a culture that makes all forms of emotional masking extremely available so it may even feel natural to us. So does that make sense?
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Yeah. Oh, 100%. and so, again, how do you, how do you encourage your clients to trust the process of the ability or willingness to fully embrace that rawness because they've been self-medicating for a long, long time.
Patrick Hentsch
Absolutely. So usually early on in the process I don't necessarily bring all of this into view. But the selling point I do start with is the fact that our emotions are the source of our vitality. And I think instinctively we all actually do want to feel as alive as we can. And what addicts do without knowing it most of the time is, they will try to control the emotions that arise with being alive, the ones they don't like or they have difficulty with by numbing or avoiding or, other forms of escaping. And the thing about that is, we can't just selectively shut down certain emotions and not others because if we use this idea of energy, our organism, our own body is sort of a generator of this energy. And so you can't tell the factory to only make these widgets and not those widgets, either it's running or it's shut down.
So when we're numbing—because there are very challenging emotions that none of us enjoy—when we're numbing we're shutting down the whole system. And ironically, as comforting as it may be for the addict to avoid certain emotions, they start to notice that they don't feel very alive. And so what addicts also do is, I call it synthetically generate fake emotions. And in the case of sex addiction, we can appreciate that in terms of—so addicts or numbing whatever they're having difficulty with, let's say shame, and usually they've done it so well that they don't even know it's there, because if I avoid something well enough, or if I avoid it as well as I could avoid it, it gets to the point where I've avoided it so well that I deny its existence, because I never see it. And so I may be avoiding shame or numbing shame, but life feels numb, and I don't feel alive so I introduce synthetic feelings and for sex addicts, most often that's arousal, that's excitement... sex addicts that are acting out are under the illusion that they're very alive, you know, they're feeling intensely. But as I say—it's kind of like—if we're talking about drugs—it's kind of like using sedatives to shut it all down but then I almost feel dead so now I'm taking an upper. And so the whole thing's unnatural. And we're not accessing the true power, and the true energy of our own natural emotions.
And like you said, emotions don't just animate us in life, but there's a range of different emotions, and each emotion has its own wisdom, its own function, so it doesn't just supply us with energy or motivation, but one of the gifts of emotional maturity is to start to recognize which emotion is arising, because the emotion contains information that contains vital information that is sometimes much more powerful than rational thinking. Information about what do I need to do next. Because life is about knowing what to do next at every turn. We are constantly faced with stimulus, and the question is how do I respond and, hopefully, I think in recovery we respond to the stimulus with the combined wisdom of clear thinking and clear feeling but we respond to the stimulus in a way that serves our personal purpose.
And I think that's when life becomes meaningful: I'm going somewhere or I know where I'm headed, and so every choice I make is about helping my progression, my journey, my meaningful journey towards the things that matter to me.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
I only wish that people could follow along with you and with this chart because this chart, this model is amazing. And yes, I think they could have availability to get this chart, how would they do that?
Patrick Hentsch
Yes, absolutely. So this chart along with a number of the other ones I've made, they're all available from my website. And there's an online shop section to my website, where all of these charts can be ordered. (link to store)
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Wow. Okay, so they can go to your website. Tell our listening audience what your website —because you've got actually a couple—are we talking about the empowered maturity or are we talking about the MPWRM website?
Patrick Hentsch
Okay, thank you so the website is empowered hyphen maturity, dot com and the MPWRM dot com points to the same website, it's just a slightly easier URL to remember or to spell. And so they're really the same website, where the MPWRM is a shortcut, let's say.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Yeah, because you've got a lot of—this is a very easy to understand diagram, and you've got all sorts of examples of what an addict goes through from the point of their distress, all the way up to their vitality. And you also have almost a self actualization if you will, once they have found absolute sobriety and recovery, to give them hope that they will really be able to manage their arousal, their fantasy, the numbness, and the reality of things. I was just saying today before you came on the call, that I have clients whose partner is so angry and he's not doing recovery right so he's got a long way to go, but she humiliates him by calling him a sex addict and an abuser and she name-calls, which of course throws him back into that cycle of shame and it is that cycle of shame that we are trying to work clients out of, so that they can find that energy to move forward and then make a difference in their own life and certainly the lives of others. And, as I looked at your chart, I am amazed at how you so succinctly explain the cycle. I don't know if you would call it the sexually addictive cycle kind of like Patrick Carnes has a sexually addictive cycle. But this really is that addictive cycle morphed with the empowerment wheel, if you will, the the self-actualization that we all want to get to. Just amazing.
Patrick Hentsch
Thank you. Well I'm really glad you enjoy it. And it's encouraging to hear that it's understandable as well, because I don't always know if what I'm making is only making sense to me.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Right, well, and so did you think people would look at this differently if they are kind of in those early stages of recovery versus they have recovery but they've had normal experiences that where they don't do it perfectly, versus the client that really does—he's got his recovery down and that means he is looking at other forms of emotional maturity he is working towards that. Do you think that this map, if you will, means different things if you're in different stages?
Patrick Hentsch
Yes, I do think that Carol, that's a great point, and I think what's very challenging early in the process is that an addict in active addiction or—well, which is always the case when they're at the beginning of the process, is hindered by the symptoms of addiction, and that's where I think of—or just abstinence as the opposite—well not abstinence, but addiction as the opposite of sobriety, because I described sobriety as clarity of thought and clarity of emotion, and an addict in the early stages is not sober, even if they may have been abstaining for a little while. So without the clarity of thought that's what in the profession we refer to as cognitive distortions. The addict's cognitive functioning is still altered by the addiction, so there are distortions of thinking, of perception, which of course famously include denial but other things like minimization and black-and-white thinking, so I think an addict in early stages looking at this chart, because of the cognitive distortions, may have difficulty finding it meaningful. And they may even try to logically argue against it, because of course at the deeper level the so-called inner addict would perceive this roadmap as a threat to its own existence.
So I think it starts to make better sense once the patient or the client is entering into some degree of sobriety, where there's been enough abstinence that they're starting to notice the difference in experience that comes from having clearer thoughts and the emergence of their own natural emotions. And at that point, it might really help them to see this because it's sort of suggests what can be done—what the potential is with the emergence of that clear thinking and clear feeling. Because I sometimes say that sobriety—which is the state that naturally emerges with accumulated abstinence—sobriety is probably the biggest trigger for relapse. Paradox. Why? Because in that state of sobriety the very emotions that I spent my life avoiding, putting away, numbing, are starting to emerge. They surface. It's kind of like letting something thaw from out of the freezer, and as it thaws you start to get the aroma, you smell what that food is. And those emotions are the very reason the addict was acting out to begin with. So, ironically, when the emotions start to emerge, there's the paradox of, "well I don't know what to do with them, except to go back to acting out", or "I don't know what to do with them, but I see a path, I see a possibility, I see what these strange things called feelings can be for me in my life, and I have to work now, I have to work hard to learn how to enter into a different or a new relationship with my emotions so that they do become this amazing source of wisdom, intel, vitality, energy, motivation.
And so I think that's where—at that point of the journey I think it's really important for the client to have the kind of guidance that goes beyond congratulating them for the abstinence, but that actually starts to say "hey look, so here's what we're going to learn about the feelings that are coming up for you". And so I do have a whole separate model for that. But I think sobriety is sort of the threshold that needs to be crossed for a diagram like this one to be a source of motivation or inspiration.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
I do, too. And so one more time for our listening audience, I'm talking with Patrick Hentsch, and he has created a holistic model of recovery and you can purchase that by going to his website. And that is, and I'm scrolling down. www dot empowered dash maturity dot com, and then go to the store where you see the holistic model of recovery—he has trademarked that. It's one thing that I think if you work with addicts who've got a lot of, if you work with addicts you'll wanna have because it makes it so simple. And if you want something that just kind of inspires you. It really reminds you of how important it is to embrace the rawness of being alive as Patrick calls it and I just want to share that, again, he defines abstinence as nothing more than the cessation of particular, defined behaviors that constitute acting out; and sobriety is the state that emerges with accumulated abstinence, and it creates clarity of thought and clarity of feeling; that recovery is the attitude, and Patrick says it results from living in and responding maturely to sobriety, and it's characterized by ongoing connection to the authentic self. And the sponsors of 12 step meetings that really do good work say to their clients when their clients are miserable going, "I can't take this. I hate this. I don't want it!", and they'll say, "Stay in that state. Feel that feeling. Don't try to run from it, don't try to fight it, but just stay with it and see where it takes you next." And that isn't to medicate that's not to numb. That is to take you to a higher level of self-actualization. And you know, I would imagine, you've got how many years of counseling under your belt.
Patrick Hentsch
Um, let me see, seven now.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Okay, and you are a CSAT, correct?
Patrick Hentsch
I am a CSAT, that's right.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Now have you shared this with Patrick Carnes? Because I am sure he would really appreciate seeing this model.
Patrick Hentsch
I believe you could be right, Carol. I would love to, but the thing about Patrick Carnes is—because I've been in his proximity many times, including the training for CSAT—but everybody wants a piece of Patrick Carnes, everybody has something to show him, and I've just had difficulty being comfortable being part of that, so the answer is no, I haven't. And I tell myself that he's a very busy man and he has better things to do than to look at what I've done.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Well, I can see why you might say that but I truly believe—he did a show for us, and he was talking about this model without calling it the holistic model. And I know he endorses this kind of thinking, and again, I don't know if you had the module where Patrick was talking about leaving legacies, and self actualizing and getting into coaching once you really are solidly in recovery. But that is for that attitudinal shift and for the addicts are listening, that do have good recovery, and that really are wanting to take their life to the next level, that's the exciting part of life. You know you've done the work, and now the payoff, and the trade off is you get to really focus on how do you give back, how do you make a difference, and how do you make your life everything it can be, and so Patrick, I want to thank you again for talking about this model I know we're going to have you on in the future because you've got several other things that you'd like to share with our listening audience. This model is amazing and you're really making a difference in the world. This is all about your actualization.
Patrick Hentsch
Thank you so much, Carol it's been a pleasure to be able to share this and a pleasure speaking with you. And I look forward to our future talks.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Absolutely. Talk to you soon.
Patrick Hentsch
Thank you. Bye bye.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Bye bye.
And so really we come into life ill-equipped with how to experience our own emotions as anything other than inconvenient intrusions. So, I think addiction has a lot to do with the ways many of us —without the guidance—discover ways in which we think we can control our emotional experience, either by numbing, avoiding, or replacing our emotions. And so that's a very unfortunate way to come into life, because I think of emotions as energy. And I think of our emotions as really our own life-force, our vitality.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Well I was gonna say and if you're numbing them, self medicating with any kind of addictive matter, then you really aren't healing. Those are all important feelings that may either direct you to do something different or affirm you, or get you to change. And so one of the things that I really noticed about your model and by the way, it really is an amazing model—he has a diagram: ability and willingness to fully embrace the rawness of being alive—and I agree with you I think emotions are nothing more than energy, we are nothing more than energy. And so, this model shows how abstinence, and sobriety are so important, but it's the recovery that actually helps you to embrace the rawness of life. Wouldn't you agree?
Patrick Hentsch
Absolutely, yes, that's the real prize you're right Carol, that's the prize and I think many end up in so called recovery, in the program, not realizing how high they can aim, so sadly often people use the terms abstinence, sobriety, recovery interchangeably. And when I work with my clients, one of the first things I want to clear up is how they each mean something quite different, even though very related. And so when people have abstained for whatever, three, five years, that's commendable because that alone isn't easy to do, but that is only the beginning, and, when I say that's only the beginning I don't mean timewise, I mean I think we can get much further in five years than just being abstinent but without the awareness, you know, I see a lot of people living in a state of abstinence, three, five years in who aren't necessarily aware of how much further they could go and from my perspective, are not living in recovery. And the most obvious form of that is colloquially known as the dry drunk.
So I think it's helpful to to clarify the difference between these terms even if they just chart sort of a path, because each stage, each term, promises something different. And so abstinence really is nothing more than the cessation of a defined particular behavior which naturally is very important, and is the first thing we address when someone starts to work on this. But here's the thing about abstinence, Carol, like I said it's stopping a specific behavior so what usually happens is we start with identifying which behavior is the problem behavior. And generally speaking that definition is pretty narrow, so in the case of sex addiction, that may be even more specific than just sexual behavior as a blanket statement. It'll depend on what the addict's been doing to act out, but in the program, those who are familiar with it there's the thing called the three circles or the bottom line behaviors, and so addicts begin by defining usually a list of behaviors, for example, attending a strip club, or consuming pornography or, flirting with people outside of my marriage and so forth. And so we have a list of specific behaviors, which is very important, and now we we aim to abstain from those and that's also very important—and I'll also say very difficult—and a lot goes into how do we do that well. But what that also means is, it doesn't allow us, at this point, when we're focusing on abstinence, to maybe realize that if the core issue is the avoidance or the numbing of emotions, at this point it's difficult to appreciate that there are so many other ways that we humans know how to numb or avoid emotions and that we routinely engage in them. And so we have a paradox because in the early stages, we have to define bottom line behaviors, we have to abstain from them and get traction. It's almost like a secret that the counselor knows which is that later on, there'll be a host of other behavior to look at. I think early on, that's overwhelming for—you know, it's hard enough for an addict just to put down, whatever their identified addiction is.
And so it's a paradox. But, the implication is that, as this journey continues, other forms, maybe more subtle forms of emotional masking, I'll call it, do they exist and are very available. We live in a culture that makes all forms of emotional masking extremely available so it may even feel natural to us. So does that make sense?
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Yeah. Oh, 100%. and so, again, how do you, how do you encourage your clients to trust the process of the ability or willingness to fully embrace that rawness because they've been self-medicating for a long, long time.
Patrick Hentsch
Absolutely. So usually early on in the process I don't necessarily bring all of this into view. But the selling point I do start with is the fact that our emotions are the source of our vitality. And I think instinctively we all actually do want to feel as alive as we can. And what addicts do without knowing it most of the time is, they will try to control the emotions that arise with being alive, the ones they don't like or they have difficulty with by numbing or avoiding or, other forms of escaping. And the thing about that is, we can't just selectively shut down certain emotions and not others because if we use this idea of energy, our organism, our own body is sort of a generator of this energy. And so you can't tell the factory to only make these widgets and not those widgets, either it's running or it's shut down.
So when we're numbing—because there are very challenging emotions that none of us enjoy—when we're numbing we're shutting down the whole system. And ironically, as comforting as it may be for the addict to avoid certain emotions, they start to notice that they don't feel very alive. And so what addicts also do is, I call it synthetically generate fake emotions. And in the case of sex addiction, we can appreciate that in terms of—so addicts or numbing whatever they're having difficulty with, let's say shame, and usually they've done it so well that they don't even know it's there, because if I avoid something well enough, or if I avoid it as well as I could avoid it, it gets to the point where I've avoided it so well that I deny its existence, because I never see it. And so I may be avoiding shame or numbing shame, but life feels numb, and I don't feel alive so I introduce synthetic feelings and for sex addicts, most often that's arousal, that's excitement... sex addicts that are acting out are under the illusion that they're very alive, you know, they're feeling intensely. But as I say—it's kind of like—if we're talking about drugs—it's kind of like using sedatives to shut it all down but then I almost feel dead so now I'm taking an upper. And so the whole thing's unnatural. And we're not accessing the true power, and the true energy of our own natural emotions.
And like you said, emotions don't just animate us in life, but there's a range of different emotions, and each emotion has its own wisdom, its own function, so it doesn't just supply us with energy or motivation, but one of the gifts of emotional maturity is to start to recognize which emotion is arising, because the emotion contains information that contains vital information that is sometimes much more powerful than rational thinking. Information about what do I need to do next. Because life is about knowing what to do next at every turn. We are constantly faced with stimulus, and the question is how do I respond and, hopefully, I think in recovery we respond to the stimulus with the combined wisdom of clear thinking and clear feeling but we respond to the stimulus in a way that serves our personal purpose.
And I think that's when life becomes meaningful: I'm going somewhere or I know where I'm headed, and so every choice I make is about helping my progression, my journey, my meaningful journey towards the things that matter to me.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
I only wish that people could follow along with you and with this chart because this chart, this model is amazing. And yes, I think they could have availability to get this chart, how would they do that?
Patrick Hentsch
Yes, absolutely. So this chart along with a number of the other ones I've made, they're all available from my website. And there's an online shop section to my website, where all of these charts can be ordered. (link to store)
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Wow. Okay, so they can go to your website. Tell our listening audience what your website —because you've got actually a couple—are we talking about the empowered maturity or are we talking about the MPWRM website?
Patrick Hentsch
Okay, thank you so the website is empowered hyphen maturity, dot com and the MPWRM dot com points to the same website, it's just a slightly easier URL to remember or to spell. And so they're really the same website, where the MPWRM is a shortcut, let's say.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Yeah, because you've got a lot of—this is a very easy to understand diagram, and you've got all sorts of examples of what an addict goes through from the point of their distress, all the way up to their vitality. And you also have almost a self actualization if you will, once they have found absolute sobriety and recovery, to give them hope that they will really be able to manage their arousal, their fantasy, the numbness, and the reality of things. I was just saying today before you came on the call, that I have clients whose partner is so angry and he's not doing recovery right so he's got a long way to go, but she humiliates him by calling him a sex addict and an abuser and she name-calls, which of course throws him back into that cycle of shame and it is that cycle of shame that we are trying to work clients out of, so that they can find that energy to move forward and then make a difference in their own life and certainly the lives of others. And, as I looked at your chart, I am amazed at how you so succinctly explain the cycle. I don't know if you would call it the sexually addictive cycle kind of like Patrick Carnes has a sexually addictive cycle. But this really is that addictive cycle morphed with the empowerment wheel, if you will, the the self-actualization that we all want to get to. Just amazing.
Patrick Hentsch
Thank you. Well I'm really glad you enjoy it. And it's encouraging to hear that it's understandable as well, because I don't always know if what I'm making is only making sense to me.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Right, well, and so did you think people would look at this differently if they are kind of in those early stages of recovery versus they have recovery but they've had normal experiences that where they don't do it perfectly, versus the client that really does—he's got his recovery down and that means he is looking at other forms of emotional maturity he is working towards that. Do you think that this map, if you will, means different things if you're in different stages?
Patrick Hentsch
Yes, I do think that Carol, that's a great point, and I think what's very challenging early in the process is that an addict in active addiction or—well, which is always the case when they're at the beginning of the process, is hindered by the symptoms of addiction, and that's where I think of—or just abstinence as the opposite—well not abstinence, but addiction as the opposite of sobriety, because I described sobriety as clarity of thought and clarity of emotion, and an addict in the early stages is not sober, even if they may have been abstaining for a little while. So without the clarity of thought that's what in the profession we refer to as cognitive distortions. The addict's cognitive functioning is still altered by the addiction, so there are distortions of thinking, of perception, which of course famously include denial but other things like minimization and black-and-white thinking, so I think an addict in early stages looking at this chart, because of the cognitive distortions, may have difficulty finding it meaningful. And they may even try to logically argue against it, because of course at the deeper level the so-called inner addict would perceive this roadmap as a threat to its own existence.
So I think it starts to make better sense once the patient or the client is entering into some degree of sobriety, where there's been enough abstinence that they're starting to notice the difference in experience that comes from having clearer thoughts and the emergence of their own natural emotions. And at that point, it might really help them to see this because it's sort of suggests what can be done—what the potential is with the emergence of that clear thinking and clear feeling. Because I sometimes say that sobriety—which is the state that naturally emerges with accumulated abstinence—sobriety is probably the biggest trigger for relapse. Paradox. Why? Because in that state of sobriety the very emotions that I spent my life avoiding, putting away, numbing, are starting to emerge. They surface. It's kind of like letting something thaw from out of the freezer, and as it thaws you start to get the aroma, you smell what that food is. And those emotions are the very reason the addict was acting out to begin with. So, ironically, when the emotions start to emerge, there's the paradox of, "well I don't know what to do with them, except to go back to acting out", or "I don't know what to do with them, but I see a path, I see a possibility, I see what these strange things called feelings can be for me in my life, and I have to work now, I have to work hard to learn how to enter into a different or a new relationship with my emotions so that they do become this amazing source of wisdom, intel, vitality, energy, motivation.
And so I think that's where—at that point of the journey I think it's really important for the client to have the kind of guidance that goes beyond congratulating them for the abstinence, but that actually starts to say "hey look, so here's what we're going to learn about the feelings that are coming up for you". And so I do have a whole separate model for that. But I think sobriety is sort of the threshold that needs to be crossed for a diagram like this one to be a source of motivation or inspiration.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
I do, too. And so one more time for our listening audience, I'm talking with Patrick Hentsch, and he has created a holistic model of recovery and you can purchase that by going to his website. And that is, and I'm scrolling down. www dot empowered dash maturity dot com, and then go to the store where you see the holistic model of recovery—he has trademarked that. It's one thing that I think if you work with addicts who've got a lot of, if you work with addicts you'll wanna have because it makes it so simple. And if you want something that just kind of inspires you. It really reminds you of how important it is to embrace the rawness of being alive as Patrick calls it and I just want to share that, again, he defines abstinence as nothing more than the cessation of particular, defined behaviors that constitute acting out; and sobriety is the state that emerges with accumulated abstinence, and it creates clarity of thought and clarity of feeling; that recovery is the attitude, and Patrick says it results from living in and responding maturely to sobriety, and it's characterized by ongoing connection to the authentic self. And the sponsors of 12 step meetings that really do good work say to their clients when their clients are miserable going, "I can't take this. I hate this. I don't want it!", and they'll say, "Stay in that state. Feel that feeling. Don't try to run from it, don't try to fight it, but just stay with it and see where it takes you next." And that isn't to medicate that's not to numb. That is to take you to a higher level of self-actualization. And you know, I would imagine, you've got how many years of counseling under your belt.
Patrick Hentsch
Um, let me see, seven now.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Okay, and you are a CSAT, correct?
Patrick Hentsch
I am a CSAT, that's right.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Now have you shared this with Patrick Carnes? Because I am sure he would really appreciate seeing this model.
Patrick Hentsch
I believe you could be right, Carol. I would love to, but the thing about Patrick Carnes is—because I've been in his proximity many times, including the training for CSAT—but everybody wants a piece of Patrick Carnes, everybody has something to show him, and I've just had difficulty being comfortable being part of that, so the answer is no, I haven't. And I tell myself that he's a very busy man and he has better things to do than to look at what I've done.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Well, I can see why you might say that but I truly believe—he did a show for us, and he was talking about this model without calling it the holistic model. And I know he endorses this kind of thinking, and again, I don't know if you had the module where Patrick was talking about leaving legacies, and self actualizing and getting into coaching once you really are solidly in recovery. But that is for that attitudinal shift and for the addicts are listening, that do have good recovery, and that really are wanting to take their life to the next level, that's the exciting part of life. You know you've done the work, and now the payoff, and the trade off is you get to really focus on how do you give back, how do you make a difference, and how do you make your life everything it can be, and so Patrick, I want to thank you again for talking about this model I know we're going to have you on in the future because you've got several other things that you'd like to share with our listening audience. This model is amazing and you're really making a difference in the world. This is all about your actualization.
Patrick Hentsch
Thank you so much, Carol it's been a pleasure to be able to share this and a pleasure speaking with you. And I look forward to our future talks.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Absolutely. Talk to you soon.
Patrick Hentsch
Thank you. Bye bye.
Carol Juergensen Sheets
Bye bye.
Patrick Hentsch
Founder of Empowered Maturity™
Archives
October 2020
September 2020
March 2020
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
February 2019
November 2018
RSS Feed
